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08/06/2004
Turkey baster? No. Garlic press? Maybe. Grapefruit spoon? Definitely.
Today this site has been getting plenty of traffic from a site devoted to the rants of the childfree-by-choice. It's hard to know where to start.
The rant in question refers to my post about why we don't stop trying, even in the face of disappointment after disappointment. Now, there are a lot of legitimate reasons for finding our struggles disturbing, reasons many of us have explored ourselves. If the anonymous poster had crafted a thoughtful vent about the selfishness and waste he or she sees in our continued efforts, I could understand and even — I swear — agree in some small part, as those are feelings I've had myself as I debated whether to continue.
But no. The poster called us "wannabreed bitches," "airheads," and "turkey-baster fucking, dumbfuck breeder cunts," and left it at that.
Okay!
Although I believe the idea that people without children are systematically shortchanged by society is misguided, I think it's worth discussing. Although I can't see how my desire to have children infringes on the rights of others not to, I'm willing to listen. And although I don't believe our reproductive choices are anyone's business but Paul's and mine, I grudgingly accept that others have opinions on the subject.
So, you know, yeah, I'm a wannabreed bitch, but I don't think I'm that much of an asshole. Airhead dumbfuck, sure, but a cunt? And for the record, on the long list of items I have fucked, a turkey baster does not appear. (The balloon whisk for my Kitchen Aid has been strangely appealing of late, and we won't even talk about the lemon reamer, but turkey baster? No. I make my own gravy without it, thank you.)
I look at the comments you wrote in response to my post — sincere, eloquent, and poignant, opening your hearts to share some deeply intimate feelings — and I get angry.
Where the fucking fuck does anyone get off, dismissing those feelings so glibly, with such ugliness?
I promise you that not a single one of the women here takes her children for granted, should she manage to have them at all, or assumes she's entitled to anything. (Infertility teaches us that, and it's a hard fucking lesson to learn.) I swear that for every story a childfree person has about being nosily asked when he or she is going to have kids, an infertile woman has three or four, every bit as infuriating and humiliating if not more so. And I would bet cash money that an infertile woman — especially one fresh off another negative — can summon just as much outrage about inconsiderate self-centered "breeders" as the angriest childfree advocate.
I don't think we're the enemy, if there has to be one.
Nor are we bitches, airheads, or dumbfuck cunts. We're people. We're worthy of more careful consideration than the slapped-on label of "ovarian-obsessed cows." And the kitchen implements we choose to fuck are none of anyone's goddamn business.
Posted by Julie at 01:20 PM in I've learned a lot...but I'm not sure it's worth it. | Permalink
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» Play Nice from Life's Jest-Book
In a week or so, Daff and I will have been married eleven years. For a long time (and as long as we were presumed fertile) our rationale for wanting children was never asked (let alone questioned!). A few posts [Read More]
Tracked on Aug 8, 2004 9:54:06 AM
Comments (75)
My question is this - Why do you feel that you have to comment on something that is not of any consequence to you? Why do you have to portray yourself as the absolute asshat that you are - when I'm sure there is many other forums where those kinds of comments are welcomed? Leave us alone - we have our reasons for trying anything and everything possible in our quest for a child!Go fuck yourself with the turkey baster - may I suggest a lovely basting sauce of some really hot chile peppers!
Posted by: Isabel at Aug 6, 2004 2:15:39 PM
I alluded to this in one of my posts recently- there was a time when I thought I might be one of those people who chose not to have children. Who. Chose. Not. To. The difference between infertile and these folks being abundantly clear-- they are making a choice. Women should have that choice to make. But if you can't get pregnant and you want a baby...ain't much choice going on there.
See? It's all very simple in my view.
And I'm not about to disclose any torrid affairs I've had with kitchen gadgetry.
Posted by: Kristine at Aug 6, 2004 2:21:57 PM
I just have to say that I understand your desire to bring a baby into this world fresh from your body...to feel it move within you...to know it might have his daddy's eyes, your chin, his hair, your ears. I understand your husband's desire for a baby made from you and from him.
I understand that some people are willing to go through more than others in order to see this happen. Some people are lucky and some are not. I can't begrudge you treatment after treatment and loss after loss. (This is written for anyone who reads your blog...not necessarily you, Julie)
I have to thank you for writing...for sharing your struggles. As I have posted on other blogs, I am a better friend to the infertile people in my life because of you and the other wonderful women I read. NO ONE has the right to tell you what you are entitled to. NO ONE has the right to call you names. I have a feeling that if those child-free by choice did NOT have a choice, they'd feel differently. If someone told them they HAD to have children, that they didn't have a choice, they'd be mighty pissed. Note to all of you out there who might call any of these lovely ladies selfish (not to mention other horrid names) butt the fuck out.
Thank you
Posted by: Reenie at Aug 6, 2004 2:31:31 PM
How remarkably unpleasant. Really. I am less offended by being called a dumbfuck breeder cunt than I am utterly baffled. So... they are anti-human? I don't get it but, by all means, please don't have children if you don't want to. It like you might not be the best parent, all things considered.
The babies I have known are cute and soft and they smell nice. Then they grow up and become auto mechanics and oncologists and nihilists and the world shuffles along in its balanced way.
Children are just starter people. In my enormous naiveté I am having trouble imagining civilization without them. That's a good thing?
Posted by: Julia S at Aug 6, 2004 3:01:29 PM
Good god, that's infuriating. Anybody who not only sits in judgement in that way, but resorts to that kind of childish, abusive language gets nothing from me but scorn and anger. I respect anyone's choice to remain childfree -- or to pursue any and all fertility treatments -- but I do NOT respect that poster's aggressive attempt to shut down dialogue and make us infertiles feel like crap. F**k off, and let us grieve in peace.
Posted by: lobster girl at Aug 6, 2004 3:04:26 PM
I guess I missed it.
Where exactly was this loveliness?
Posted by: Liz at Aug 6, 2004 3:09:52 PM
I should clarify that the post in question didn't appear on this blog, so, really, no one was trying to shut down the discussion here.
Posted by: Julie at Aug 6, 2004 3:28:23 PM
Well, seeing as how I have two kids, I guess I'm a dumbfuck breeder cunt...and I wouldn't have it any other way. To the childfree out there who are annoyed by children in public: I'm annoyed by people who smoke...and blow the smoke my way, the man next to me on the bus who was loudly blowing his nose, then grossly examining the contents of his kleenex...ick, my clueless neighbor who sets his car alarm to go off when it rains, then sleeps through the inevitable 3 am screeching until another fed up neighbor pounds on his door, and his counterpart up the street who leaves for work at 4 am...after letting his car engine idle for an hour, and who desperately needs a new muffler.
I could go on, but the point is, if you're looking for stuff to be pissed off about, you don't have to look very far. Why pick on kids or infertile women?
Posted by: Leslie at Aug 6, 2004 3:37:39 PM
I am relieved to hear that the poster who was so threatened by wannabreed bitches has chosen to remove his/her genes from the pool.
Posted by: jc at Aug 6, 2004 3:42:25 PM
Wow, do I so agree with jc's comment above. Let's hope they *never* breed.
Posted by: KateXPhile at Aug 6, 2004 3:49:25 PM
Maybe this will be offensive to some people, but honestly, it's not meant to be. I am really just curious.
If one decides that they do not wish to have children - to live child-free by choice, never wanted 'em, never will, for sure, no doubt in their mind - wouldn't one then just move forward? Just get on with one's child-free-by-choice lifestyle? Why look back? It's perfectly acceptable to choose not to have children, so what's the problem?
If I decided that I didn't ever want to have a pet, for whatever reason, I wouldn't then search the internet for sources to vent my frustration about people who would like to have pets. I would simply not have pets.
My point is: If you decide not to do "A", why aren't you busy doing "B"? Why dwell on it?
Posted by: Danae at Aug 6, 2004 4:00:22 PM
So much judgement from people who claim to have moved on. Julie, please track back to these posts on the other blog - I'm obviously interested in reading for myself.
In the meantime, why take the time to judge? I agree wholeheartedly with Danae - you made your choice, we make ours, the world continues to spin - must it do so in judgement?
Posted by: Liz at Aug 6, 2004 4:07:27 PM
I too am compleatly baffled, why would anyone care if a bunch of smart, funny, wonderful women want to have children to love?
Posted by: cheryl b. at Aug 6, 2004 4:09:38 PM
Come on, Julie, Let us at'em. Where are they?? Come on, give us the link to their blog.
Posted by: Deborah at Aug 6, 2004 4:13:08 PM
My name is Lisa and I'm a wannabreed bitch. [Welcome Lisa.] But I sorta get why a child-free person might have some issues with our child-centric society and those of us desparately trying to be a part of that society. I bristle at Bring Our Children To Work day, when the people with kids get to play with their kids while I have to work as usual. Or when parents leave work early to coach their kids' soccer games and never seem to get any flack, while I get hastled when I show up late from a doctor appointment (especially one involving an early morning date with a dildocam). This irritates me, and I want kids--imagination the irritation if you don't!
That said, though, I don't make a point of denigrating those who choose to live child-free so I don't see why they need to deingrate me. And, of course, name calling is never very fun.
Posted by: Brooklyn Girl at Aug 6, 2004 4:23:35 PM
I had somebody make a comment like that on my site. The worse part was that the coward didn't leave me an e-mail.
I can not understand why people who choose to live a childfree life have a problem with infertiles.
First of all:
If we all stopped breeding then the human race would die off.
Second of all:
I agree that there are people who shouldn't have kids. People who don't want them. People who can't take care of them. But I for one am not one of those people.
Ugh. Stupid ignorant cowards.
Posted by: summerbreeze at Aug 6, 2004 4:53:39 PM
I'm sorry to be the one to point this out, but Julie, you wrote: "The poster called us wannabreed bitches, airheads, and turkey-baster fucking, dumbfuck breeder cunts, and left it at that."
If I'm not mistaken, the terms "wannabreed bitches," "airheads," and "turkey-baster fucking, dumbfuck breeder cunts" should all have quotation marks around them.
Thank you.
You may now return to your regularly scheduled turkey-baster fucking.
Love,
Dumbfuck Grammar Cunt
Posted by: getupgrrl at Aug 6, 2004 4:55:49 PM
Thanks, airhead cunt!
Love,
Your buxom Butterball babe
Posted by: Julie at Aug 6, 2004 5:10:44 PM
It seems this is my week for de-lurking in a number of places.
I do not want to have children. It has nothing to do with whether or not I like kids (I do, in fact, like a lot of kids). It has to do with my own personal feelings about pregnancy, labor, and parenting. And I do exactly as that one comment above suggested, I simply get on with my life. I was shocked to think there was actually a group about it.
I do occasionally have to deal with the “when are you having kids” and the guilt from mine and my partner’s families (his more so than mine, actually), but you deal with it and move on. And I have to say, honestly, I think I have it a lot easier to deal with and move on than women who’ve miscarried and had many unsuccessful cycles having to rehash that every time someone asks them if they’re planning to have kids.
Sorry for being so long-winded to make a very brief point: I've chosen not to have children but I can still admire every woman's strength and conviction when they do choose to have children. And the struggles I read about here and at many other infertiles's sites humble me. You are strong, intelligent, beautiful, courageous women.
And even if I never want to have children, I can still learn from your perseverance, your convictions and bravery.
I'm sure you all already know, but if you aren't feeling so sure, there are childless-by-choice women who still respect your struggles, support you in your endeavours, and are wishing you all the best and luck.
(And to add a bit of cheek -- I say, better you than me!)
Posted by: peach_linen at Aug 6, 2004 5:12:49 PM
I am a childfree--but not the name-calling kind--so put down your torches and pitchforks, please! *cowers*
When I discovered the CF "community" online I was excited, because sometimes the world does seem annoyingly child-centric to me, and rubbing elbows with the like-minded is enjoyable. But recently I realized, as Danae and others have alluded, it's a one-trick pony. I decided I'd made my decision, it was time to move on and shut up about it.
You wouldn't know it from the outrage being laid down with a trowel on those boards, but there is a range of CF beliefs, from people who don't believe anyone should have kids, to people who hate bad parenting (me), to people who love babies but don't want any of their own (also me). I don't say any of that to excuse the hatefulness directed at you, the infertiles, but to color in the picture if I can.
This blog and Getupgrrl's blog and others make me laugh, cry, and think every day--and I now understand infertility better than I used to. I see it's not as easy as "just adopt" or "just learn to live without a child." I know I'm taking the easy way out compared to any parent and especially compared to all those who struggle to become parents. As far as I know I have a fully functional set of reproductive organs that I am never going to use (I am even too old to donate eggs now). I wish I could fax my uterus to somebody who needs it.
Still not sure I've said what I meant to say, but 100% sure I've gone on too long.
Posted by: Laura at Aug 6, 2004 5:30:42 PM
It's about time you posted by the way Julie......you make it difficult for me to feed my obsessive compulsive needs.
OK, so I'm NOT a dumbfuck breeder cunt, but I hope to be someday (I'm mererly an aspiring dumbfuck breeder cunt).
I realize that this verbal vomit is supposed to be insulting, but fuck you poster! Being called dumfuck breeder cunts by some human-hating moron is last on our list of worries. Why don't you direct you hatred somehwere useful, like at Bush or something (sorry Replublicans).
We have enough to worry about without having to waste time defending our desire and right to have children. If you don't want children then beautiful don't have any! But what the fuck do you care if we do? I swear no of us will ask you to babysit. Promise.
Posted by: Kylie at Aug 6, 2004 5:58:55 PM
Julie, thank you for posting this. It's been a horrible week...there is no better distraction than a little righteous anger.
Posted by: Joanne at Aug 6, 2004 6:09:33 PM
That ignorant freak needs a Klonopin. Something is wrong and damaged in such a person who is so threatened by others' personal choices...he's clearly not okay with his own decision.
Posted by: Dana at Aug 6, 2004 7:10:05 PM
Dana, that's the thing, see...
clearly not okay with his own decision...
Exactly. Someone who is feeling confident doesn't need to lash out at others. Someone who is feeling pahtologically insecure, however, will shout epithets at someone who isn't choosing what he or she is choosing.
So. Is this any indication of how childless people in general feel about women who are undergoing ART? Doubtful. As someone who used to call babies in utero "parasites," I can say with assurity that many childless-by-choice folks (women especially) are simply dumbfounded and awed by the effort some of us put into achieving a role they've decided to just avoid.
It's the way I feel about running a restaurant. Who would ever want to do that? I eat to live, I don't live to eat. Cooking has zero appeal to me. Sacrifice my life savings to put a few tables into a storefront and slave in a hot kitchen? Huh?
Now I just need a forum for my rage. Goddamned fucking hash-slinging wannabe restaurateurs! Stupid braising bitches! Dumbfuck doughboy dirtballs! I'll show THEM where to stick the turkey baster / garlic press / apple peeler-corer-slicer!
Posted by: mollie at Aug 6, 2004 7:37:38 PM
Hmm...that person does seem to have an anger management issue.
I do get stuck thinking about the rights of childless people versus people with children (like myself). I think we don't, as a society do enough to support people with children. Even if one does not like children, I believe supported parents are less likely to raise criminals, so it's a public safety issue. (That's a joke, but also has an element of truth.) But at the same time, I can see why someone who doesn't have children could get tired of being asked about it, questioned, told they are selfish, etc.
Posted by: cherylc at Aug 6, 2004 7:43:26 PM
Am I weird for thinking that people who define themself SO strongly by their childlessness, all the time, are odd in and of themselves? Even if they don't write stupid things about kickass women or advocate physically harming rugrats?
I don't have children. I'm not sure I'll ever have children. I get irritated when I have to pick up slack for my coworkers who leave at 4 pm to catch their kids' soccer games.
But...the not having children part is only one line on my personal resume. I also like singing, reading, skiing and watching Buffy. If you were to ask me what defines me as a person, the "lack of children" thing would be pretty far down the list. When I meet potential friends, their possession of children or lack thereof is not one of the criteria that I use in determining compatibility.
I know that parenthood itself is hugely important in one's self-definition when one is a parent. But parenthood takes up a huge quantity of one's time and energy and changes the way one looks at life, so I understand this. What I don't understand is the lack of such a time/energy drain becoming so all-important in one's self definition when you've never known anything different.
Caveat: I haven't ruled out having children some day, and I do love the little buggers. My opinion may not be very representative. And I think I've escaped a goodly quantity of the "when are you going to breed" questions. So maybe I'm not approaching this with the right degree of bitterness. But even if I end up childless for life, I can't see being drawn to associate with groups of people solely because of their lack of children. An appreciation for chocolate is MUCH more important.
(Disclaimer: I know plenty of other people without kids, and none of them are like these freaks, at least not in person. I'd like to ask all of these nasty childfree types exactly how they make a living, and then ask them how they plan on continuing to do so without a steady stream of potential new customers/users/clients/whatever...)
Posted by: Marion at Aug 6, 2004 8:17:52 PM
I've been called worse.
Posted by: Emily at Aug 6, 2004 8:37:51 PM
I've been called worse. This person is a rank amateur. I can do better than that.
Posted by: Emily at Aug 6, 2004 8:38:31 PM
Yanno Julie... it's too bad the person who called us those names had parents who were willing to breed.
Love,
Brenda
(who will never look at her kitchen aid mixer the same again)
Posted by: BrendaS at Aug 6, 2004 9:44:39 PM
Damn.
I don't care, I'm still going to have my way with that sexy new wooden spoon.
Posted by: Menita at Aug 6, 2004 11:00:55 PM
Careful of splinters, Menita.
Posted by: BrendaS at Aug 6, 2004 11:58:47 PM
Hey there are suddenly a ton of mixers on ebay- whats up?
Posted by: Lisa at Aug 7, 2004 1:15:03 AM
Ignore them. Seriously, it's not even worth it. I love reading your entries. :)
Posted by: belle at Aug 7, 2004 3:40:59 AM
And to think there are people who are choosing to much, much worse, like give crack to little kids, and it's us, the barren bitches, that are getting the shit end of the stick.
Posted by: Sherry at Aug 7, 2004 6:36:02 AM
I'm partial to a good corkscrew myself.
Posted by: barren mare at Aug 7, 2004 7:38:47 AM
I was a "No kids for me thanks" woman. I was diagnosed with infertility due to scarring and blocked tubes in '96. I thought I had comes to terms with my infertility. I thought I was happy and content with my choice for a childfree life.
I could "borrow" my sister's kids and give them back. I had an ex whose daughter I raised from six months of age to four years. I was able to "sample" motherhood and I didn't think it was for me. So I never pursued corrective surgery or IVF.
Then in May of this year, I got what was probably a case of food poisoning, a week before my period. So not only did I have the period-related tender breasts and the tiredness, but I had the food poisoning-related nausea and food aversions. I, and everyone watching my symptoms, thought I was pregnant.
I bought into the hype.
To make a long story short, I am now gearing up for my first IVF cycle. I have reviewed the years with Dani (my ex-stepdaughter) and miss having a child around terribly. It took that close call to wake me up to the fact that I really do want children. And will do anything to have one.
Maybe if the people or person that said the horrible things had a "close call" or an "accidental pregnancy" they would reconsider. They would have an epiphany of sorts. No, motherhood isn't for everyone, but neither is childlessness. So leave us to our crack-house bathrooms, and our turkey basters, and our love affair with our REs. This is OUR choice.
Posted by: Skylara at Aug 7, 2004 9:37:04 AM
I'm sorry that some people suck and you have to deal with that. I'm so thankful for your humor in face of this kind of crap, it helps me see the humor in my own situations.
Posted by: Debe at Aug 7, 2004 10:17:17 AM
I don't know what some people get so angry about other people's lives. Or, just get so angry period.
Posted by: Ellen at Aug 7, 2004 11:57:42 AM
I don't know why some people get so angry about other people's lives. Or, just get so angry period.
Posted by: Ellen at Aug 7, 2004 11:57:59 AM
Because I love, make that LOAVE Julie so, I will somehow find the strength to control myself from commenting on whatever stupid ____________________[fill in the blank, please]____________ left such a post anonomously. Oh lordy, I just mispelled that. Only that, those of you that really know me, Julie included, know how once I start, I don't stop till it's ALL out. So....
I WILL say that if ya think the Kitchen Aid mixer is something, you should give the newfangled Braun mixer/chopper thingie that looks kind of like an oversized vibrator a try... um....not that I have or anything.... (heheheheheheh)
KIDDING! KIDDING!
Posted by: Cyn at Aug 7, 2004 5:13:17 PM
The degree of outrage some people hold for others lives and decisions continues to baffle me. I suppose we can only be grateful that someone filled with that much hate chose *not* to have children. ::boggles::
Needless to say, great site and I admire your strength tremendously.
Posted by: Rita at Aug 7, 2004 7:43:51 PM
I'm a proud dumbfuck cunt and mother. Or vice versa?
Anyway, I have to absolutely disagree with the idea that we live in a child-centric country here in the USA. If you compare the policies of this country with those of, say, Scandanavia, you'd find them to be almost anti-child and family. We talk the talk here, but there are really very few governmental policies in place that benefit children, education or parenting. Given the fact that these are the next generation of adults (as Julia S. pointed out), I think parents should be given more benefits, not fewer. It's not like childhood is a permanant condition.
Posted by: Brooklyn Mama at Aug 7, 2004 8:52:17 PM
Ah yes, these beauties have spoken about me on their site. They apparently hope that I miscarry. Charming bunch.
What I can't understand is if they want to live childfree then great! Fine! Live childfree, its your choice. But why knock other peoples choices? And why oh why are you reading our blogs? I certainly don't want to read yours. Each to their own.
Pity their parents didn't have the same philosophy as they did.
Posted by: Tertia at Aug 8, 2004 2:45:36 AM
Reading the post makes me wretch. What makes someone think that they should hoist their opposing views on someone. If people don't want to have children, then that is their choice. Why feel the need to attack someone for their choice to want to keep trying to have them.
Your story is very similar to mine although we never did the invitro route - my cholmid test did not go well. When we got our 3rd and final opinion from our 3rd and final doctor ("you won't be able to have them, sorry"), we decided that we would probably adopt. I found out that I was 9 weeks pregnant about 4 months later.
Even though I was told that I "couldn't" have kids, I could not imagine not having them in my life. So, if that makes me an awful person so be it! People should just keep their fucking opinions to themselves - stupid selfish children haters.
Posted by: irene at Aug 8, 2004 8:50:52 AM
Tertia - EXCUSE ME??!!!
1 - Please tell me YOURS was not the infiltrated blog.
2 - PLEASE tell me the URL for this board full of "people" are who are wishing that on you (email me if you want) - that is just effing unacceptable, offensive.
I know, I know - you can take care of yourself. I'm sorry to be so angry and offended on your behalf, but that's effing SICK!
Posted by: Liz at Aug 8, 2004 10:39:39 AM
Liz, I dont want to put the URL on this site or mine because I dont want hits coming from our site. But email me or Julie and I will give it to you, they are an odd bunch.
Posted by: Tertia at Aug 8, 2004 1:33:15 PM
I've got to have the URL. I'm feeling cranky and need an outlet. Please?
Posted by: chris at Aug 8, 2004 4:52:15 PM
Wow, why would anyone want to say these things to us?
We are just a group of really unlucky women who want to have children. Do these people not think we feel like "dumbfuck wannabe breeders" each time we see our neighbours peg out their babyclothes on the washing line(which she did today...sniff)or when we get our period late and have been obsessing (with glee) how to tell our husbands. Or the realisation that yet another year has ticked by and we still don't have a baby.
I would like to say to these spitefull cruel people THANKYOU I am so fucking glad that you have decided not to unleash your spawn on the world.
Posted by: Sarah at Aug 8, 2004 5:07:47 PM
Oh my word. That is highly disturbing. How do some people get off writing something like that on someone else's blog...and especially one that deals with such an important, sensitive, personal issue as trying to have a BABY? I don't care what your preference is: anyone who would call something such a name is a sick, mucked up, twisted, loser of a human being. Yuck.
Posted by: Jo at Aug 8, 2004 10:49:23 PM
((hugs)) ladies..... guess I'm a dumbfuck breeder cunt too... sais la vis (I don't think I spelled that right?! LOL)
Proud Momma to 2.5 yr old g/b/g triplets via Clomid & IUI
Posted by: Marsha at Aug 8, 2004 10:54:25 PM
